I believe such changes are really bad. As a pretty much fresh pilot i already felt amarr ships being not as good as, say, minmatar, cause of armor tanking problems and how much capacitor dependent they are. So, apoc was one BS i was looking forward to, as his cap bonus made it newbie friendly and could be flown without spending a few months for all capacitor related skills. Now it's impossible. I don't believe ammar need a nerf. They need a buff.

Imagine if you had to train all t2 missiles, navigation and all shield tanking skills in addition to your armour and turrets and cap. #minmatar

Imagine if you had to train all t2 missiles, navigation and all shield tanking skills in addition to your armour and turrets and cap. #minmatar

Any race will always have a defense hole against a weapon that can change it's damage type.

Also, as a side note, Caldari BS can be effectively armor tanked if the pilot chooses to do so, it just means giving up the use of damage mods.

Amarr ships have higher Ex/Ki resistance, than most other ships. Especially T2 variants. It's especially stupid easy to omnitank Amarr T2. As well as Minmatar T2. Seems like a draw for me.
Lasers are more powerful of a weapon, than most of other weapon in the game. Though, fitting is a concern. As well as cap use. The difference is the alpha strike. Which Amarr don't have. And what makes Minmatar more attractive, in general.
To sum it up, Amarr is not supposed to be flexible in first place. They are supposed to be competitive. Which is true for all races. And which needs attention. Not the spherical versatility in the vacuum.

I don't want an amarr ships that go and do everything every other ship in the game does. If I wanted that, I'd just do more cross training for the other races ships instead (not that I can't already sit in every Amarr, Minnie, and Cald T1 BS or smaller, and all Gall BC or smaller T1 hulls, mind you). Each race has it's own overall flavor, and to destroy that would destroy eve.

lols, I'm the troll? You can't even 'speak' properly half of whatever you may be trying to make a point of is lost because of your broken english, and when I try to realistically respond to what little point does come across, I'm a troll? Go back and read the entire thread again.

Well clearly even the Tier3 BS are not balanced so by that definition they will all be unbalanced.
Hyperion has poor cap for an cap intensive ship
Abbadon can't even run its guns for long
Maelstrom has poor cap aswell but ASB and projectiles give it a nice non cap using option
Rokh has poor cap aswell and very poor mobility which limits its options somewhat.

I did wish to make a comment about the whole "teiricide" stuff ...

I've been doing all these Amarr ship tests with max fitting skills, max cap skills, and Amarr BS 5
Realistically with the ability get into these ships with 1 battleship level most newer players getting into them aren't going to have level 5 skills in fitting and cap.
I am seriously concerned that though I and a few of the other testers are able to fit them and make them atleast usable that these newer players to Amarr won't be able to.
I'm just unsure with the extremely small amount of us actually testing these changes whether someone with level 3 or 4 fitting and cap skills are going to be viable in these ships.
I would like to voice my plea for the dev team or the bughunters, if they have the ability and time, to test these ships with lower skills.

Indeed, and the reduction in turrets is merely one of several good and valid options myself and others have done our best to present in reasonable terms for the Devs. But, tomorrow is Mondy, and they will be returning to work, hopefully they have dedicated themselves several hours to go over these threads and discuss the options among themselves.

The hype looks badass on paper now. The raven got another mid.

I JUST LOVE ALL THE CHANGES!


THANKS CCP!! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

This is a comparison of the lasers and railguns. As you can see from this the Tachyon doesn't equate to anything on the list.
I am all for balancing lasers so it would appear one of two things needs to happen first.
Either get rid of the tachyon and balance lasers or add the equivalent tachyon sized gun to all the laser class beams.
People have been blowing smoke about balance and how unfair it would be to reduce power costs of lasers.
This is the current balance on Live servers.

TLDR: Until you get to battleship sized turrets there is parity between Beams and Railguns except for the abusive power costs.

Dropping this into here since you guys stopped talking in the Large Energy Turret thread

Closing the gap between new players and old players in some areas is definitely positive. If you notice that EVE gets to a point where you would rather have less ISK and SP let me know, we'll fix it asap..

Thank you for your answer. I will never win battle on words with you, you are probably are able to make a fool out of me, no problem (your isk/skills comment). My point is you are closing the gap between new players and old players too much. Ofc augoror has other issues, but it doesnt change a fact that t1 ship shouldnt have any (especially that big) advantages over its t2 equivalent, and armor tanked race shouldnt have less armor slots than others - but sure, it me probably making oversimplified conclusions.

@CCP Rise
In my post I pointed out how I think the tracking bonus in exchange for the cap bonus is not a good trade:

The thing that makes apoc and abaddon look bad is the stupidity of Attack BC. They can fit 8 1400mm or 8 Tachyons... and that is STUPID. Attack BC need a huge nerf or battleships will enver be useful again.

And do not dare to bring PVE into a balance discussion. The game is focused on PVP and balance is paramaunt on PVP, on PVE balance is less than secondary.. its just a frivolity !

And do not dare to bring PVE into a balance discussion. The game is focused on PVP and balance is paramaunt on PVP, on PVE balance is less than secondary.. its just a frivolity !

You fail to realize what I meant. Of course PVE need to exist. But if you loose 3% on your PVE capability.. you are just loosing a few million isk per hour. If a PVP ship looses 3% of its capabilit.. that may be the difference between survival and catastrofic failure.. between being an useful ship and useless ship.

That is why I say balance for PVE is a frivolity. Balance should always worry FIRST on PVP, because there the consequences are amplified.

Disgusted with the changes to the Armageddon. This is *the* classic Amarr gunship, and it's forced to become a neut-drone hull? The Apoc is the boat that actually looks like a drone ship -- not the friggin' Geddon.

Truth is independent of how its expressed. I am not here to make bunny happy friends. I am here to point why balance is MUCH MUCH more important on PVP than on PVE.

The truth is that the ships won't ever be in balance in PVP. Ship design is made so that the resistances and are inbalance. And its more of rock-scissor-paper game where amarr is the most predictable one because amarr has zero-zip versatility. T1 hulls spew em-thermal, and suck kinetic explosive. Yes em/thermal damage is more than with other races but we pay the price of being most predictable ship race. So everyone can either flee when they don't feel secure about that setting or when they feel secure they can easily kill you.

If you want PVP balance vote for Amarr ship versatility and fact that Amarr need drones AND launchers not just raw lasers. Amarr also need either buff to native T1 kinetic explosive or easy way to shift native resistances from EM / thermal armor to kinetic explosive because otherwise amarr ships will be always too easy to predict and find the right rock-paper-scissor.

Amarr and most PVP do not mix with current design and it won't change until the design changes.

So in fact you want a minmatar/caldari/gallente hull (pick the one you like) with a golden hull and its weapons looking like lasers ?

Or is it only another races ships but with amarr racial skills ?

I have yet to see unconstructive mayhem. Sorry. Perhaps it only looks like unconstructive mayhem if you disagree with it.

Also, why DOESN'T the Harbinger have a cousin?

they wont change the domi, because they want the AMARR to have the vamp/neut/missile+lasers/drone boat.

For me, the 'Geddon always was more like a Tempeste (attack BS).
If CCP is going to change it, Amarr won't have a BS in this role.

But for me the problem is that no one is reading our opinions, i don't see CC Rise, it is funny to saw that he improved really fast the gallente BS, but is ignoring amarrian BS that have much more issues now.

CCP ll annoy all amarrian players that use BS: 1st the armageddon that was used a lot much change all it's fitting, and that's something new, because Fozzie in many balances take the example of the armageddon and the abaddon to do ships like the tormrntor and the punisher, and some months ago everyone was saying that the armageddon would be fine like it was. The new roll is good but it ll annoy a lot of people, that roll should be done by a new BS in a future not by the geddon.

But for me the best that did CCP Rise ( Troll Rise for his amarrian friends) is the new Apoc, yes the apoc hadn't a good EHP as a PVP ship, and had a poor DPD for a BS, a much useless dps that the oracle. The only that was fine was it's stability, being good for PVE and having more fitting options, now it the same but with cap isues....

Well done CCP Rise, im sure that the team that is doing the new Apoc design http://i.imgur.com/5A9w99u.jpg will be very happy to see that this ship ll be useless because of you, and all those CCPs that don't read our posts.
Well done!! they must make you an statue, like Arcturus Mengsk, well a little bigger and with more gold ll be better for you

Personally, I don't like what CCP is doing now, the gallente is being now the heroes of this game, i saw favoritism, i don't know if it is a commercial strategy or what, but finish doing a broken faction like the gallentes OP in many cases, is a bad balance.
Amarr and caldari BS must be good choices too, not only the rohk and the abaddon, and they ll have a nerf now. Many gallente players that wan't to win the 70% of the battles can said that with a 5% resistance bonus in the abaddon, it can use a nice active tank, that can be like the hyperion active tank, but an abaddon with lasers and an active tanke has as many cap issues.
So an active abaddon ll be a joke, the hyperion with a new utility high slot using a neut, and an other low slot ll be better that an active tank abaddon allways. (o wait, it has more drones now too.. )

I know i wrote a long post, but i ll leave that game, if CCP plan is to nerf my ships and that i have to change my fittings or improve other BS skills and buy others BS to be competitive, they have done a mistake, i don't waste my time and my money to have to start again with other BS, so i leave, and if they don't have at last the dignity to read your posts i recommend you to do the same at least some months. In my case i don't think i ll return if they continue doing what they are doing, i ll wait to play the Star Citizen when it ll be finished.

Amarr doesnt need to be minmatarded, we dont need to "ross fit for shields", were an armor race.

the only issue we ever had was cap, not our speed, the speed could be rectified EASILY if we were allowed to fit a prop mod. the ONLY thing CCP would have had to change to balance Amarr ships compared to everyone else, would be to increase our cap and cap regen SIGNIFICANTLY.

Most of his older vids are nearly exclusively done in the geddon and abaddon. Most of them where done before the QR expansion where the BS class where more useful as solo/small gang pvp ships(more speed, 90% webs, pretty soft nano targets, no TEs and therefore a lot less range on smaller hulls etc.).

You can watch one right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2psM6BC3Jo&pxtry=1

What you are suggesting amounts to homogenization, the consensus across the thread is that homogenization is bad and racial strengths and differences are good. The amarr also have a tradition of fleet doctrines that are very inflexible, but alledgly work, and work well. All we want is for amarr ships to work as CCP keep on telling us how they work.

I don't mind flying a brick, but it needs to be able to tank well and to project power to make up for being a large immobile brick.

5 or 10 seconds is not advantage, it's a loss of DPS for anyone else. And we're not talking about swtitching from MF to Gleam. Yeah, go guess, there's people who know how to actually use lasers, and not just fit MF and wonder, why they can't kill anything.

[
Facts. Tell me more about them please :
Hyperion :
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second: 7200 / 1250s / 5,76

Apocalypse :
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 7000(-500) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.99 (+.49)

This is 3% more cap (like a cheap implant) for 25% less regen time. Facts, yes. Something a lot of people here completely ignore.

Even without ABC's, the Apoc is a mess. CCP Rise claims he wants to open them up to more beam usage yet gives them no increased fitting to account for it and that tracking bonus should haunt every snipers dreams.

Armageddon has a very nice bonus.
You say dumb?

Yes, Large Neuts have a Long Range. And now you get 50% extra.
And you are complaining?
The new Armageddon is amazing. Much better then the former Neutralizing/Vamp Dominix.

Indeed, and a number of us have tried to address the devs on this and the Abaddon's never-ending cap issues, someone (albeit badly) even tried addressing it during a Q&A session at fanfest, the Devs have made it abundantly clear they just don't give a rat's ass.

Yeah, right, maybe it'll hurt gallente because of their active tanks, but im sorry, the geddon's neuts wont make ANYTHING "yours to destroy" unless its an active-tank caldari ship or another amarr ship. it might hurt gallente, but they still have majority drone ships, and now that they have the only 8-lowslot battleships, they will be easier to tank up, meaning they WILL survive long enough for their drones to give you a thrashing.

face it, the only practical application the new geddon has is fighting other amarrian ships, and thast stupid, why would a race use a ship thats only good against its own? if you want a neut/drone style ship so specifically tailored to screwing with amarr, make it minnie.

the tempest sure looks like a neut/drone boat, might even look just as much like one as the geddon, who agrees?

To get the DPS out of a typhoon you had to skill T2 Large Projectiles AND T2 Torps AND Drones.

The Armageddon should be compared to the Dominix if at all. Droneboat that does not have to rely on weapons to do the job.
The Energy Neutralizing thing is a nice one though, you can do the same you did with a Domi so far, but more effective.

To deal damage you need Drones and Lasers. Or just Drones. You don't have to crosstrain the weapon system of a completely different race.

BTW its good to see devs are reading the thread.

Even if you find the Geddon good now, is it really so good that it had to be revamped from an already good ship and now takes up 1/3 of an altogether weaker lineup? Amarr desperately needed a low-SP, entry level ship useful in missions and we got 3 extremely niche ships, well 2 niche ships and the Apoc being worthless (not exaggerating, please describe an "oh I must have an Apoc" situation).

You do realize that no one, absolutely no one, uses lasers on hulls with no bonus?

Quite awhile ago I and several others tried suggesting to the Devs about dropping the Abaddon down to a 7 or even 6 turret boat with some good numbers to show it was more then feasible, some also tried suggesting (mostly) reasonable suggestions to fix it's cap issues by buffing it's cap, and I even (with numbers) tried also suggesting some buffs to cap rechargers that would also b reasonable. Absolutely no response from the Devs of any sort.

Cap disadvantage of the Abaddon is intended, and the Apocalypse have the best cap of all BS.

Oh you are too kind, thank you.


Sorry, but are you saying that in Eve-Reality people don't fit DC on their ships. Ok I got it, Mega with DC is from lala land, also all other fits that use DC are from lala land too.

Oh snap does that mean ... all Kil2's fits were from lala land , oh no his Talos fit is from lala land too. Garmon's Talos fit is from lala land, his Zealot fit is from lala land. I think you should start a thread about "DC is from lala land or how to save your lows" it will shatter some minds.

So, yeah I do see light, but that is probably that shroom soup I ate for dinner.



Of course I will, cause like I wrote before: lasers do not use cap at all and can change damage type in a heartbeat. So yeah, lasers.
Ok, you will fit all 7 highs with neuts/vamps, what size of neuts are we talking about heavy, medium, small?


Oh really, you never knew. Now I just feel bad for telling you this then. There is this top secret dev blog that you never knew about. Probably no one knew about it(so don't feel bad for not knowing), cause no one linked it in this thread, not even once. And in this dev blog there is this graph that show how awesome Dragoon really is.

Sorry, what kind of behaviour are you talking about . That is first.

and

second: "If you are a player you give the idea that you might be dev even you do not say it it seems rather obvious."
where did you get that idea?

Hells bells, lasers are you serious?!
No one will fit lasers on GedDomi, if people will fit weapons it would be projectiles or rockets.

Apocalypse is useless. Compared to the Abaddon it will almost always do inferior damage, its optimal bonus is almost always wasted and it has much worse base stats. No one will use it over Abaddon.

So, in fact, you prefer lasers, regardless of anything else. That don't mean amarr pilots who like drones shouldn't have anything don't you think ?

They can do lvl4 missions with the Abaddon or Apocalypse. If *you* can't, you are bad, it's that simple. I know it, because I diid it when I was a noob, and I was far from good.

But from everything I've heard in this thread, it sounds like the issue is more with lasers in general, as opposed to the Amarrian ships? (although I will agree the Abaddon could use a bit of a cap regen buff)